Marlyn Bacon,
You will find nine responses to your email. Hope you are a serious person and will start doing meaningful investigation. The Wind Industry is a financial fraud and a criminal scandal. Ex Enron executives scamming the public with taxpayer money.
Read the responses on the CWW site: http://cohoctonwindwatch.org
Then take the time to answer each. You will not be able to refute their arguments. The facts are clear, now it is up to you to reflect upon your position.
James Hall for CWW
Monday, October 08, 2007
Wayne M. response to Marlyn Bacon
Dear Ms. Bacon:
I'm writing in response to your email to WindWatch: a grass roots organization trying to protect YOUR interests, even if you don't recognize it. I hope you'll take a moment and read the following brief, partial explanation why it it really in your interest to oppose the proposed massive deployment of and expensive, ineffective technology. And why it's really not progress to do so.
The Edsel was also called ‘progress.’ So was using x-rays to see if new shoes fit our feet. Just because something is new doesn’t mean it’s better. Determining the truth in such matters takes time and hard work. As your parents probably told you, “The devil is in the detail.”
Well, I earnestly hope you will look at the details and not just rely on the over-blown and patently false claims of industrial wind developers. And don’t rely on the high hopes of environmental groups advocating the massive industrialization of rural landscapes. Read the fine print in the position statements of the more thoughtful organizations. You’ll find that they each support the concept of wind energy, but have concerns about how it should be developed. These concerns are routinely swept under the rug by the developers in their rush to make profits based on taxpayer funded incentives, rather than from the production of usable electricity.
As for what I want to have as my neighbor, my first answer is another neighbor who, like me, will do everything possible to conserve energy and reduce our carbon footprint. Many rural folks are in the lead on this. And we resent the profligate ways of urban folks who see the answer as once again raping the landscape. Strip mines, nuke plants, sanitary landfills, clear-cut forests: seems like the solution to every urban problem is to put it on the backs of rural America. We don’t have the votes or the money, so we don’t seem to have the clout. All we have is the truth, if we can get the urban-controlled media to tell it.
Before you continue advocating for the developers in the mistaken impression that you are doing something to reduce global warming, look at the growing evidence that wind ‘farms’ have little positive effect on this rising crisis. In fact, the data is more and more suggesting that the net effect of the current technology is to INCREASE, not lessen, greenhouse gas production.
The core of the problem is that we can’t rely on the meager amounts of electricity being produced by current designs. The wide, unpredictable swings in when and how much is produced mean that places that rely heavily on current wind technology are finding it unreliable. Check out the problems they have in Spain. Intermittent electric service is acceptable in third world societies as an alternative to NO electricity, and rural folks have never forgotten how to get along when the power goes off, but urban areas quickly descend into chaos. Is that what you are advocating?
If you were living on that one acre in Hardscrabble and a wind turbine next door was causing you health problems and you couldn’t afford to move because no one else wanted to live there either, what would YOU do? You could keep a stiff upper lip and think, “I’m taking one for the team,” and you’d be wrong. You’d only be taking the fall not for the environment, but so investment bankers could reap windfall profits.
As J.P. Morgan (whose company is now one of the biggest wind developers – Noble Environmental) once said, “There are two reasons why a man does anything: a good one, and the real one.” He also said, “I owe the public nothing.” And his company and the rest of the wind development industry continue to operate under the same cynical and corrupt immorality.
Best wishes in your search for truth and justice,
Wayne M.
wlmmail-wind@yahoo.com
I'm writing in response to your email to WindWatch: a grass roots organization trying to protect YOUR interests, even if you don't recognize it. I hope you'll take a moment and read the following brief, partial explanation why it it really in your interest to oppose the proposed massive deployment of and expensive, ineffective technology. And why it's really not progress to do so.
The Edsel was also called ‘progress.’ So was using x-rays to see if new shoes fit our feet. Just because something is new doesn’t mean it’s better. Determining the truth in such matters takes time and hard work. As your parents probably told you, “The devil is in the detail.”
Well, I earnestly hope you will look at the details and not just rely on the over-blown and patently false claims of industrial wind developers. And don’t rely on the high hopes of environmental groups advocating the massive industrialization of rural landscapes. Read the fine print in the position statements of the more thoughtful organizations. You’ll find that they each support the concept of wind energy, but have concerns about how it should be developed. These concerns are routinely swept under the rug by the developers in their rush to make profits based on taxpayer funded incentives, rather than from the production of usable electricity.
As for what I want to have as my neighbor, my first answer is another neighbor who, like me, will do everything possible to conserve energy and reduce our carbon footprint. Many rural folks are in the lead on this. And we resent the profligate ways of urban folks who see the answer as once again raping the landscape. Strip mines, nuke plants, sanitary landfills, clear-cut forests: seems like the solution to every urban problem is to put it on the backs of rural America. We don’t have the votes or the money, so we don’t seem to have the clout. All we have is the truth, if we can get the urban-controlled media to tell it.
Before you continue advocating for the developers in the mistaken impression that you are doing something to reduce global warming, look at the growing evidence that wind ‘farms’ have little positive effect on this rising crisis. In fact, the data is more and more suggesting that the net effect of the current technology is to INCREASE, not lessen, greenhouse gas production.
The core of the problem is that we can’t rely on the meager amounts of electricity being produced by current designs. The wide, unpredictable swings in when and how much is produced mean that places that rely heavily on current wind technology are finding it unreliable. Check out the problems they have in Spain. Intermittent electric service is acceptable in third world societies as an alternative to NO electricity, and rural folks have never forgotten how to get along when the power goes off, but urban areas quickly descend into chaos. Is that what you are advocating?
If you were living on that one acre in Hardscrabble and a wind turbine next door was causing you health problems and you couldn’t afford to move because no one else wanted to live there either, what would YOU do? You could keep a stiff upper lip and think, “I’m taking one for the team,” and you’d be wrong. You’d only be taking the fall not for the environment, but so investment bankers could reap windfall profits.
As J.P. Morgan (whose company is now one of the biggest wind developers – Noble Environmental) once said, “There are two reasons why a man does anything: a good one, and the real one.” He also said, “I owe the public nothing.” And his company and the rest of the wind development industry continue to operate under the same cynical and corrupt immorality.
Best wishes in your search for truth and justice,
Wayne M.
wlmmail-wind@yahoo.com
Prattsburgh officials still misleading the public
To the Editor,
The Wind Factory situation in Prattsburgh gets more and more bizarre as UPC tries to talk landowners into signing easements that it desperately needs for a contiguous transmission route to its substation. At the same time, an issue of trust is arising because of misleading statements from local officials.
It seems that UPC has hired a firm - Prospect Land Services - to contact landowners so that they will sign easements for the transmission cables. This was surprising news since town officials had stated that UPC would be able to use easements that the town has for maintaining roads. However, what residents were not told is that landowners own their property to the middle of the road, and while the town's approval is necessary, the landowners must approve the easement as well.
It's a bit confusing for the landowners.
Last spring UPC bragged that they would begin work in June - then July - then August. Supporters of the project went so far as to "leak" an e-mail to this effect to those who have raised objections to the project. However, aside from some-out-of state trucks and out-of-county surveyors driving around Prattsburgh, real work has not commenced and will not commence until and unless they have a contiguous route to the substation. UPC is not an electric utility, cannot force people to sign easements and neither can the Town of Prattsburgh. Prattsburgh officials should be ashamed for misleading its citizens.
Al Muscianese Prattsburgh
The Wind Factory situation in Prattsburgh gets more and more bizarre as UPC tries to talk landowners into signing easements that it desperately needs for a contiguous transmission route to its substation. At the same time, an issue of trust is arising because of misleading statements from local officials.
It seems that UPC has hired a firm - Prospect Land Services - to contact landowners so that they will sign easements for the transmission cables. This was surprising news since town officials had stated that UPC would be able to use easements that the town has for maintaining roads. However, what residents were not told is that landowners own their property to the middle of the road, and while the town's approval is necessary, the landowners must approve the easement as well.
It's a bit confusing for the landowners.
Last spring UPC bragged that they would begin work in June - then July - then August. Supporters of the project went so far as to "leak" an e-mail to this effect to those who have raised objections to the project. However, aside from some-out-of state trucks and out-of-county surveyors driving around Prattsburgh, real work has not commenced and will not commence until and unless they have a contiguous route to the substation. UPC is not an electric utility, cannot force people to sign easements and neither can the Town of Prattsburgh. Prattsburgh officials should be ashamed for misleading its citizens.
Al Muscianese Prattsburgh
Linda LaWare response to Marlyn Bacon
Hi Marilyn,
I am against windmills for several reasons. The foremost reason is that I have read many articles on the net that talk of people living near windmills who have had to abandon their property because of the noise and because they become sick. There are ongoing studies that even suggest that children become autistic if they live in near proximity of these behemoths. I also feel they are NOT nice looking and are a blight on the beautiful landscape, I believe they will become obsolete very quickly and your town will be responsible for removing the 40 foot cube from the ground plus dismantling a 400 foot monster, I can't imagine the cost or where they might put these things. They kill birds and bats no matter what you have heard and they drive wildlife to other areas.
Add to the above that they are primarily owned by foreign investors and are actually being traded all the time or bought by other countries...not America. They produce very little energy and they are attached to the existing grid so there will be even more coal us and more coal burning plants.
Yes, nuclear power, in my opinion, is cleaner and safer!! If you happen to be drivin by a windmill this winter, make sure you watch out for huge blocks of ice that the blades can thrown for huge distances. If you happen to be hit by one of these blocks you would most likely be seriously injured or worse.
I wish you all the best and I hope you will take time to read the other side comments on the Internet. Also make sure you read the information that is from other countries where the windmills have been used for a longer period of time. Maybe you could even find out if any of the government officials live near these things...I will bet you will find out that they do not, they know the real story and they are the people making money from these monsters.
I wish you the best,
Linda LaWare
Attica, NY
llaware@aol.com
I am against windmills for several reasons. The foremost reason is that I have read many articles on the net that talk of people living near windmills who have had to abandon their property because of the noise and because they become sick. There are ongoing studies that even suggest that children become autistic if they live in near proximity of these behemoths. I also feel they are NOT nice looking and are a blight on the beautiful landscape, I believe they will become obsolete very quickly and your town will be responsible for removing the 40 foot cube from the ground plus dismantling a 400 foot monster, I can't imagine the cost or where they might put these things. They kill birds and bats no matter what you have heard and they drive wildlife to other areas.
Add to the above that they are primarily owned by foreign investors and are actually being traded all the time or bought by other countries...not America. They produce very little energy and they are attached to the existing grid so there will be even more coal us and more coal burning plants.
Yes, nuclear power, in my opinion, is cleaner and safer!! If you happen to be drivin by a windmill this winter, make sure you watch out for huge blocks of ice that the blades can thrown for huge distances. If you happen to be hit by one of these blocks you would most likely be seriously injured or worse.
I wish you all the best and I hope you will take time to read the other side comments on the Internet. Also make sure you read the information that is from other countries where the windmills have been used for a longer period of time. Maybe you could even find out if any of the government officials live near these things...I will bet you will find out that they do not, they know the real story and they are the people making money from these monsters.
I wish you the best,
Linda LaWare
Attica, NY
llaware@aol.com
Brad Jones response to Marlyn Bacon
Dear Marlyn,
We saw your note to Cohocton Wind Watch and thought that, as an informed citizen, you might want to learn a little bit more about the realities of industrial wind energy.
Attached is a recently published letter that summarizes the conclusions from our review of a great deal of independent research. Also attached are comments we submitted on the Cohocton project which go into much more detail.
Bt the way, we are not NIMBY's; we are simply studying the proposals with open minds and our conclusions are driven by scientific facts, not fantasy.
Please feel free to contact us with any comments or questions.
Linda and Brad
Brad Jones
PerformancePlus Business Consultants
3996 Donley Road
Naples NY 14512
585 233 8539 (Cell)
585 374 2627 (Office)
windfarm-%20Cohocton%20Wind%20SDEIS%20comments-final.doc
windfarms%20letterThe%20Inconvenient%20Truths%20of%20Wind%20Power.doc
We saw your note to Cohocton Wind Watch and thought that, as an informed citizen, you might want to learn a little bit more about the realities of industrial wind energy.
Attached is a recently published letter that summarizes the conclusions from our review of a great deal of independent research. Also attached are comments we submitted on the Cohocton project which go into much more detail.
Bt the way, we are not NIMBY's; we are simply studying the proposals with open minds and our conclusions are driven by scientific facts, not fantasy.
Please feel free to contact us with any comments or questions.
Linda and Brad
Brad Jones
PerformancePlus Business Consultants
3996 Donley Road
Naples NY 14512
585 233 8539 (Cell)
585 374 2627 (Office)
windfarm-%20Cohocton%20Wind%20SDEIS%20comments-final.doc
windfarms%20letterThe%20Inconvenient%20Truths%20of%20Wind%20Power.doc
Bonnie Palmiter response to Marlyn Bacon
Maryln,
First I would like to respond with most that you say are against windmills are against Town Governments allowing foreign companies coming in and taking over our prestine countrysides without following their own laws and permitting laws.
Most live in the country and certainly own more than an acre of land, along with living in the country we have other means of acquiring our own electricity if the power goes out. We have made ourselves self sufficient living in the country, and not all depend on others to take care of them when power goes out.
It is the towns people that aren't affected by the windturbines, not windmills as you state, that are the ones that call for electricy the minute they lose it.
Research if done by you and not through wind developers would know that windturbines do not eliminate our dependence on oil or other fuels. When your electric bills go up, which it will and your taxes go up, which they will I'm sure you will be the first complain. Nothing in this life is free you pay and you pay dearly. Not just through money but also through prestine country sides, as you know from Three Mile Island Atomic Power Plant you live by.
When we sell our country out to foreign investors and developers they then start owning our electricity, when they decide to pull the plug so to speak on our electric grid then will you think windturbines are a great thing? I fear not, educate yourself through the errors that other countries and our own states have come across instead of listening to foreign developers.
Progress is work in motion and through past mistakes, and those mistakes get altered through developers, I certainly don't know that this is the way to go, like you state it as a fact. It's peoples thinking like yours that have a problem with educating yourself on the full facts out there that what to dictate what we as landowners who chose to live out in the hills and country are suppose to live with. Groups like ours, not handfuls of people like you think, are educating the people to look at all there is out there to show that windturbines are not the way to go. You, pro-wind are the ones dictating what we landowners out in the country are suppose to live with.
Bonnie Palmiter
First I would like to respond with most that you say are against windmills are against Town Governments allowing foreign companies coming in and taking over our prestine countrysides without following their own laws and permitting laws.
Most live in the country and certainly own more than an acre of land, along with living in the country we have other means of acquiring our own electricity if the power goes out. We have made ourselves self sufficient living in the country, and not all depend on others to take care of them when power goes out.
It is the towns people that aren't affected by the windturbines, not windmills as you state, that are the ones that call for electricy the minute they lose it.
Research if done by you and not through wind developers would know that windturbines do not eliminate our dependence on oil or other fuels. When your electric bills go up, which it will and your taxes go up, which they will I'm sure you will be the first complain. Nothing in this life is free you pay and you pay dearly. Not just through money but also through prestine country sides, as you know from Three Mile Island Atomic Power Plant you live by.
When we sell our country out to foreign investors and developers they then start owning our electricity, when they decide to pull the plug so to speak on our electric grid then will you think windturbines are a great thing? I fear not, educate yourself through the errors that other countries and our own states have come across instead of listening to foreign developers.
Progress is work in motion and through past mistakes, and those mistakes get altered through developers, I certainly don't know that this is the way to go, like you state it as a fact. It's peoples thinking like yours that have a problem with educating yourself on the full facts out there that what to dictate what we as landowners who chose to live out in the hills and country are suppose to live with. Groups like ours, not handfuls of people like you think, are educating the people to look at all there is out there to show that windturbines are not the way to go. You, pro-wind are the ones dictating what we landowners out in the country are suppose to live with.
Bonnie Palmiter
Dick's response to Marlyn Bacon
It sounds like you have not researched wind turbines. They are wind turbines and not windmills. They are not a new technology as they have been installed in Europe for over 30 yrs and the US for over 20 yrs.
They do not make electricity when the wind is not blowing. They also do not run at capacity when the wind blows under 35 mph. They also do not run when the winds are 55 mph. So you will get electricity from them when the wind window is from about 10 mph to about 55 mph.
Denmark has been using wind turbines for 30 yrs and has never shut down any power plant that runs on fossil fuel. No country that has installed wind turbines has ever decommissioned a power plant that uses oil, coal, natural gas or nuclear energy. Denmark buys electricity from bordering countries even with all their wind turbines
When a representative of a wind company makes statements that a wind turbine will power X amount of homes he is not telling the whole truth. That statement is for when the turbine has the right amount of wind to run at capacity. Here in New York state they only produce electricity 30% of the time. Of that 30% only 1/3 is used as the other 2/3 is produced when it is not needed. This data was produced by General Electric at the request of the state of New York.
I am not against wind turbines if they are not destroying the landscape of the state of New York. That they pay the same tax rates as all the other business and industry pays in the state. That all the people are hired from the state of New York for the construction and operation of the wind farms. That they have a 3,000 foot setback from any other persons property line. That the people that represent the wind company are honest about the facts of wind turbines and wind farms.
What the people in the US need to know is that wind farms will not replace power plants that use fossil fuels to make electricity. To imply that they will is leading the people of the US down a road of lies and untruths.
Yes we have to do something about our energy consumption. The fastest way to do this is called conservation and every person has the ability to do that. Conserving energy is immediate and costs individuals no moneys.
People need to research things before they say yes to any major changes in their community and not just see dollars and say yes.
I wonder if your dislike for people that are not for wind farms is because you own land that has the potential for wind turbines and you are looking at the dollars.
I don't like to subsidize something that is not going to fix the problem be it electricity or any other problem.
True progress is when one finds a solution to a problem and wind farms are not a fix or a solution to our energy needs.
Dick dicksrag@frontiernet.net
They do not make electricity when the wind is not blowing. They also do not run at capacity when the wind blows under 35 mph. They also do not run when the winds are 55 mph. So you will get electricity from them when the wind window is from about 10 mph to about 55 mph.
Denmark has been using wind turbines for 30 yrs and has never shut down any power plant that runs on fossil fuel. No country that has installed wind turbines has ever decommissioned a power plant that uses oil, coal, natural gas or nuclear energy. Denmark buys electricity from bordering countries even with all their wind turbines
When a representative of a wind company makes statements that a wind turbine will power X amount of homes he is not telling the whole truth. That statement is for when the turbine has the right amount of wind to run at capacity. Here in New York state they only produce electricity 30% of the time. Of that 30% only 1/3 is used as the other 2/3 is produced when it is not needed. This data was produced by General Electric at the request of the state of New York.
I am not against wind turbines if they are not destroying the landscape of the state of New York. That they pay the same tax rates as all the other business and industry pays in the state. That all the people are hired from the state of New York for the construction and operation of the wind farms. That they have a 3,000 foot setback from any other persons property line. That the people that represent the wind company are honest about the facts of wind turbines and wind farms.
What the people in the US need to know is that wind farms will not replace power plants that use fossil fuels to make electricity. To imply that they will is leading the people of the US down a road of lies and untruths.
Yes we have to do something about our energy consumption. The fastest way to do this is called conservation and every person has the ability to do that. Conserving energy is immediate and costs individuals no moneys.
People need to research things before they say yes to any major changes in their community and not just see dollars and say yes.
I wonder if your dislike for people that are not for wind farms is because you own land that has the potential for wind turbines and you are looking at the dollars.
I don't like to subsidize something that is not going to fix the problem be it electricity or any other problem.
True progress is when one finds a solution to a problem and wind farms are not a fix or a solution to our energy needs.
Dick dicksrag@frontiernet.net
Spencer Lyman response to Marlyn Bacon
Marlyn,
The people who have made up "an orgnization such as ours" are not just raising issues for vanity's sake. I can speak for our group in particular as being made up of a very varied group of backgrounds and education levels, from an artichect to a banker to a farmer and a bus driver, all of whom started raising issues that they felt impacted them personally which then brought them into contact with each other. These are people who had lived together in the same area for many years but would never have come to know each other but through this common effort. Some were local or "natives", others long term transplants who valued what they found here and so chose to protect the things they have come to love and yet other newcomers who also arrived because they recognized the specialness here.
No one is against wind -- just this type of industrial wind in an inappropriate location. And the fact that we already have several sources of renewable hydroelectric producing projects nearby that will be ramped down when the towers come on line because the grid can not accommodate the additional power. It is not like the new electricity will give us "more" power thereby lowering the cost. but only replacing it with a different source.
In Europe where there have been wind turbines for better than 20 years, there are studies that show no traditional popwer producing plants have been replaced by the start up of wind projects, and the European countires who initially were the front runners in this new technology are now denying permitting for new construction.
Groups like ours are not ranting radicals but we thought out and researched our positions before we began this fight. We took on a considerable amount of personal debts and hard work to back our position which would not have been a voluntary choice unless considered absolutely essential.
To comment on your mention of being inconvenienced by a power outage, this is a reality we live with very regularly. And have many more "inconvenience" when it happens. No water, even to flush the toilet; no heat in below freezing and below zero temperatures due to snow/ice storms that may be days before repaired, just to name a few.
Marlyn, please take the time to read this article titled "Less For More" on the website www.wind-watch.org found under "key documents". And just because we are not the majority of people in town with objections, it does not make us a small group. When a vote on the issue was called by the town leaders, the results of the vote was 97 against to 120 for; not exactly an overwhelming majority. Meanwhile the next town over did have a unanimous vote against so not every person is an ongoing "active" fighter but we represent many people behind the forefront.
Spencer Lyman spncr_lyman@yahoo.com
The people who have made up "an orgnization such as ours" are not just raising issues for vanity's sake. I can speak for our group in particular as being made up of a very varied group of backgrounds and education levels, from an artichect to a banker to a farmer and a bus driver, all of whom started raising issues that they felt impacted them personally which then brought them into contact with each other. These are people who had lived together in the same area for many years but would never have come to know each other but through this common effort. Some were local or "natives", others long term transplants who valued what they found here and so chose to protect the things they have come to love and yet other newcomers who also arrived because they recognized the specialness here.
No one is against wind -- just this type of industrial wind in an inappropriate location. And the fact that we already have several sources of renewable hydroelectric producing projects nearby that will be ramped down when the towers come on line because the grid can not accommodate the additional power. It is not like the new electricity will give us "more" power thereby lowering the cost. but only replacing it with a different source.
In Europe where there have been wind turbines for better than 20 years, there are studies that show no traditional popwer producing plants have been replaced by the start up of wind projects, and the European countires who initially were the front runners in this new technology are now denying permitting for new construction.
Groups like ours are not ranting radicals but we thought out and researched our positions before we began this fight. We took on a considerable amount of personal debts and hard work to back our position which would not have been a voluntary choice unless considered absolutely essential.
To comment on your mention of being inconvenienced by a power outage, this is a reality we live with very regularly. And have many more "inconvenience" when it happens. No water, even to flush the toilet; no heat in below freezing and below zero temperatures due to snow/ice storms that may be days before repaired, just to name a few.
Marlyn, please take the time to read this article titled "Less For More" on the website www.wind-watch.org found under "key documents". And just because we are not the majority of people in town with objections, it does not make us a small group. When a vote on the issue was called by the town leaders, the results of the vote was 97 against to 120 for; not exactly an overwhelming majority. Meanwhile the next town over did have a unanimous vote against so not every person is an ongoing "active" fighter but we represent many people behind the forefront.
Spencer Lyman spncr_lyman@yahoo.com
John Bose response to Marlyn Bacon
Ms. Bacon,
I'm one of those opposed to wind mills anywhere not just in my back yard. When I think of electric power I think of words like "reliable" and "dependable". Wind power is neither of these. I look at the hundreds of wind mills out west put up as a alternate source of energy because a bunch of people were sold a bill of goods, this plan has given us the term "BROWN OUT" because wind power is not reliable nor dependable.
You can't begin to equate the reliability and dependability as well of the cost effectiveness of atomic power to wind power.
We have two in our group who have private wind mills, they know just how useless wind power is. I would like to see just how far wind power would make it on there own, without all the Government $$$. My guess is there would be no wind mills at all. Real companies don't invest big bucks in things that have a bad batting record.
Respectfully,
John Bose
I'm one of those opposed to wind mills anywhere not just in my back yard. When I think of electric power I think of words like "reliable" and "dependable". Wind power is neither of these. I look at the hundreds of wind mills out west put up as a alternate source of energy because a bunch of people were sold a bill of goods, this plan has given us the term "BROWN OUT" because wind power is not reliable nor dependable.
You can't begin to equate the reliability and dependability as well of the cost effectiveness of atomic power to wind power.
We have two in our group who have private wind mills, they know just how useless wind power is. I would like to see just how far wind power would make it on there own, without all the Government $$$. My guess is there would be no wind mills at all. Real companies don't invest big bucks in things that have a bad batting record.
Respectfully,
John Bose
Phyllis Darling response to Marlyn Bacon
First of all, they are NOT windmills. They are WIND ENERGY CONVERSION SYSTEMS!!!!!!! a/k/a W.E.C.S.!!!! Second of all, are you by any chance a beneficiary of one or more of these "W.E.C.S" on your hardscrabble property???? (and yes, i am a farmer, who would not allow a corporation to ursurp my property rights with a phony, self-serving contract).
In our area, the only people who speak FOR wind TURBINES are those who will be getting MONEY to site them on their property. If they are SO GREAT, then why cannot the corporations give that very important information to the public---i.e. how much usuable electricity is put on the grid, by day, by week, by month, by these great machines??? Yet, you expect property owners to buy into very little information, given out by corporation representatives, so that the corporations can make a major profit, and mess up our landscape, so that you can pat youself on the back that you have saved the world!!!
I have been told by my own state senator that she cannot get that information. also, the state public service commission cannot get that information (it is considered CONFIDENTIAL by the corporations). If YOU can PROVE to me as a consumer, that the turbines will benefit my town and the U.S. economically, i will buy your argument. But the feeble balogny that they reduce the dependence on foreign oil, where are YOUR figures--barrel for barrel, turbine for turbine. AND please do not quote me the hogwash that each turbine will produce enough energy to light 300-or-500-or-600 homes---that dog doesn't track!!! That home will be "energized" intermittently, as that is the way of the TURBINES. Are you are willing to wait for your neighbor to finish toasting his bread, so that you can read your mail with a 60 watt bulb??!!!!! Come on, are you up for the challenge??? Give me FACTS!!!!!!!!
Phyllis Darling
electra@2ki.net
In our area, the only people who speak FOR wind TURBINES are those who will be getting MONEY to site them on their property. If they are SO GREAT, then why cannot the corporations give that very important information to the public---i.e. how much usuable electricity is put on the grid, by day, by week, by month, by these great machines??? Yet, you expect property owners to buy into very little information, given out by corporation representatives, so that the corporations can make a major profit, and mess up our landscape, so that you can pat youself on the back that you have saved the world!!!
I have been told by my own state senator that she cannot get that information. also, the state public service commission cannot get that information (it is considered CONFIDENTIAL by the corporations). If YOU can PROVE to me as a consumer, that the turbines will benefit my town and the U.S. economically, i will buy your argument. But the feeble balogny that they reduce the dependence on foreign oil, where are YOUR figures--barrel for barrel, turbine for turbine. AND please do not quote me the hogwash that each turbine will produce enough energy to light 300-or-500-or-600 homes---that dog doesn't track!!! That home will be "energized" intermittently, as that is the way of the TURBINES. Are you are willing to wait for your neighbor to finish toasting his bread, so that you can read your mail with a 60 watt bulb??!!!!! Come on, are you up for the challenge??? Give me FACTS!!!!!!!!
Phyllis Darling
electra@2ki.net
Barry Miller response to Marlyn Bacon
Hi Marlyn,
Having spent 20 years in the wind energy business, I could not agree with you more about the importance of wind generated electricity.
One of the experiences I had working in the wind business (I operated a wind farm in the Altamont Pass area of California) was the ruthlessness of many of the wind turbine manufacturers and developers. They did not have the values and ideals of conscientiousness I would have suspected would be prevalent in the business.
Those of us who are living in the incredible beautiful area here in western New York and Pennsylvania are being subjected to this ruthlessness. The developers are lying to us and using underhanded methods to site turbines which are way too large and way to close to our homes. In addition, with knowledge of wind resources, there is not enough wind here to justify the ripping up of our forest lands for minimal power generation.
I am for small wind and solar development in the area; in fact, home generated power is really where this country needs to revert back to.
There were over a million small wind turbine systems throughout the mid-west of the US in the 1930's and half of the homes in Pasadena, CA in 1900 had solar water heaters.
We need to be following the European example of off-shore wind turbine installations where the wind is more suitable and the health of the public is not compromised.
Thanks,
Barry Miller
Concerned Citizens of Cattaraugus County
Having spent 20 years in the wind energy business, I could not agree with you more about the importance of wind generated electricity.
One of the experiences I had working in the wind business (I operated a wind farm in the Altamont Pass area of California) was the ruthlessness of many of the wind turbine manufacturers and developers. They did not have the values and ideals of conscientiousness I would have suspected would be prevalent in the business.
Those of us who are living in the incredible beautiful area here in western New York and Pennsylvania are being subjected to this ruthlessness. The developers are lying to us and using underhanded methods to site turbines which are way too large and way to close to our homes. In addition, with knowledge of wind resources, there is not enough wind here to justify the ripping up of our forest lands for minimal power generation.
I am for small wind and solar development in the area; in fact, home generated power is really where this country needs to revert back to.
There were over a million small wind turbine systems throughout the mid-west of the US in the 1930's and half of the homes in Pasadena, CA in 1900 had solar water heaters.
We need to be following the European example of off-shore wind turbine installations where the wind is more suitable and the health of the public is not compromised.
Thanks,
Barry Miller
Concerned Citizens of Cattaraugus County
On 10/7/07, MarlynBacon@aol.com wrote:
I have a real problem with organizations such as yours who is against windmills. I bet the minute you are without electricity you are on the phone complaining because you are inconvienced. I own property in the Hardscrabble Project of New York and I am all for Windmills to eliminate our dependence on oil or other fuels.I live in Pennsylvania and are 40 miles from Three Mile Island Atomic Power Plant. Would you want to live beside an Atomic Power Plant or a Windmill?
Your organization wants to enjoy the fruits of Electricity but not in your backyards.
There is always a hand full of people like you who probably own one acre of land and want to dictate what all the neighbors around you do with their land.
Get with progress because you know this is the way we must go.
marlynbacon@aol.com
Your organization wants to enjoy the fruits of Electricity but not in your backyards.
There is always a hand full of people like you who probably own one acre of land and want to dictate what all the neighbors around you do with their land.
Get with progress because you know this is the way we must go.
marlynbacon@aol.com
Sunday, October 07, 2007
UPC: Permits to be signed soon by MARY PERHAM
The recent lawsuits charge UPC with violating their conditional Public Safety Commission permit. The action also challenges the issuance of special use permits by the Cohocton Planning Board. Opponents also claim certain turbines intrude upon the property in neighboring towns and Ontario County.
An antitrust complaint filed early this year by other Cohocton residents charges the wind industry as a whole violates the Sherman Antitrust Act by preventing competition and restraining trade.
Recent complaints by local labor unions put a halt to the Steuben County Industrial Development Agency's plan Sept. 27 to approve property tax breaks for the UPC project.
The unions say UPC is hiring out-of-state construction workers instead of using local labor resources. Encouraging local employment is a part of SCIDA's mandate.
But labor representatives said UPC also has hired firms from out of the area, including a downstate firm, Delaney Heavy Highway Construction, of Gloversville, for road work.
“We have no problem with them hiring supervisors. We have no problem with local people, whether it's union or nonunion,” said Mike Altonberg, business agent for The Ironworkers in Rochester.
The Ironworkers are now picketing UPC offices in Cohocton.
“And by local, we mean Steuben and the surrounding counties. But I don't know how many in the area are familiar with crane work. And putting up 60-ton towers takes some doing, I can tell you,” Altonberg said.
(Click to read entire article)
An antitrust complaint filed early this year by other Cohocton residents charges the wind industry as a whole violates the Sherman Antitrust Act by preventing competition and restraining trade.
Recent complaints by local labor unions put a halt to the Steuben County Industrial Development Agency's plan Sept. 27 to approve property tax breaks for the UPC project.
The unions say UPC is hiring out-of-state construction workers instead of using local labor resources. Encouraging local employment is a part of SCIDA's mandate.
But labor representatives said UPC also has hired firms from out of the area, including a downstate firm, Delaney Heavy Highway Construction, of Gloversville, for road work.
“We have no problem with them hiring supervisors. We have no problem with local people, whether it's union or nonunion,” said Mike Altonberg, business agent for The Ironworkers in Rochester.
The Ironworkers are now picketing UPC offices in Cohocton.
“And by local, we mean Steuben and the surrounding counties. But I don't know how many in the area are familiar with crane work. And putting up 60-ton towers takes some doing, I can tell you,” Altonberg said.
(Click to read entire article)
Friday, October 05, 2007
Site work rolling in anticipation of permits to erect 50 wind turbines: Contractor putting in 26 access roads, scraping topsoil by Bob Clark
UPC Public Outreach Coordinator Rick Towner points toward the bolt alignment rings for attaching a 420-feet tall wind turbine on Dutch Hill to a concrete anchor 57 feet in diameter. Mortenson Construction, the main contractor on the project, has been moving earth on the project for the last two weeks, but building permits for pouring the concrete anchors have not been issued yet.COHOCTON - The bulldozers are rolling again in Cohocton, following a short hiatus late last month.
Construction is under way at the Cohocton and Dutch Hill wind projects, according to UPC public outreach coordinator Rick Towner.
“Right now, we're only moving topsoil, building access roads, and laying power lines.” Towner said. “(The state Department of Agriculture and Markets) says we can only have five acres of topsoil exposed at one time. As soon as we move it out of the way, we go right through and mulch it.
“As I understand it, the permits are ready to be signed, and (Cohocton Code Enforcement Officer Joe Bob) is waiting to hear back from their engineering firm,” he added. “We could have permits in hand by this afternoon.”
For now, Mortenson Construction is scraping topsoil around the 50 turbine sites, 32 on Lent and Pine hills, 15 on Dutch Hill, and 3 on Brown Hill, eight miles to the south near the project's connection to the main power grid, but the underlying soil cannot be disturbed.
“All the sites need to be completely level,” said Towner, looking over the site of Turbine 1, which will sit on what now is a sloping field. He added the topsoil is only 1 foot thick in many places on top of the hills.
Each site will have a 200-foot diameter circle with the wind turbine set in the middle, according to Towner. Each of the 420-foot tall turbines, with a component cost around $2.5 million for each unit, will sit on a concrete pad 57-feet across and varying in thickness from 15-feet deep in the center to two feet at the edges.
“The edges will be far enough underground that farmers will still be able to plow,” Towner said, adding only a 16-foot circle of concrete will stick up a foot and a half out of the ground, and, “A five-by-five foot transformer will sit at the base of each tower.”
The transformer will change the voltage of the electricity from the 600 volts coming from the turbines to 34,500 volts for transmission to a substation.
The 26 access roads for the site are currently under construction as well, according to Towner, and several were already completed as of Wednesday afternoon.
As for when the turbines will be operational, there is no official answer.
“People keep asking me how long it takes to build (a turbine),” Towner said. “From my understanding, it takes about a week for the concrete to cure, and another week to build the tower in a best-case scenario. The generator and blades can not be raised in winds over 20 miles per hour, which is a problem since we're building in a place with as much wind as we could find.”
With the uncertainty, there is no way of knowing when all the turbines will be up and operational, but this year seems unlikely.
Despite several recent setbacks for UPC, construction is still moving as far as it can.
UPC broke ground on the two projects on Sept. 18. Within two days, the Steuben County Highway Department had placed weight limits on several roads that gravel and equipment were being transported to the site on, until the roads were inspected and deemed safe. The highway department later removed the restrictions.
“By the next Thursday, we were rolling again,” Towner said.
The Steuben County Industrial Development Agency did not approve the Payment in Lieu of Taxes agreement for UPC last week, which surprised many in the local wind power scene.
“It's hard for me to believe that they would not approve (the PILOT agreement),” Towner said. “On the flip side, I don't think (UPC) would continue work if they didn't think they would get it. Without the tax breaks in the agreement, it would be hard for any company to build here.”
In related news, three members of the Iron Worker's union were set up outside the UPC office Wednesday.
“It's not that I'm against wind power, it's just that they're bringing in workers from out of state to work on the project,” said iron worker's union marketing representative Paul Sirianni. “When you go up to the work site, look at the license plates on the vehicles up there.”
“We're going to be here all weekend,” he added, saying protesting workers will be on hand for the Cohocton Fall Foliage Festival.
Towner said applications are still being accepted by Mortenson and other contractors on the project, and applications can be filled out at the UPC office at 28 Maple Ave. in Cohocton.
The presentation of three Article 78 lawsuits filed on Aug. 31 were changed from Tuesday to Oct. 16.
“It was a mutually-agreed on move,” Towner said. “The plaintiffs were having problems serving several of the respondents.”
The Article 78 lawsuits, filed by members of Cohocton Wind Watch, are aimed at overturning the special-use permits issued to UPC by the Cohocton Planning Board, saying that the permits are illegal on 13 different counts.
Towns need help on wind farms
Daily%20Messenger%20-%20Editorial%20-%20Towns%20need%20help%20%282%29.pdf
Town governments are big on local control, but in the case of wind farms, such authority may be more illusion than reality.
The legal tangles in Italy, Prattsburgh and Cohocton over projects there show how energy companies have local governments outgunned with lawyers and wind experts at the ready.
Most of us defer the total control we exercise over our cars to a mechanic. Wind farms are infinitely more complex, which is why the state needs to provide towns with expertise to evaluate projects or provide cash to hire its own help.
The state has stacked the deck against small towns, starting with former Gov. George Pataki’s executive order on June 30, 2001 — and continued by Gov. Eliot Spitzer on Jan. 1, 2007 — that all state agencies buy 10 percent of their electricity from renewable sources by 2005 and 20 percent by 2010. Those orders turned the development of wind, hydro and other forms of renewable energy from desirable to a public imperative. The state Public Service Commission cited those orders in granting subsidiaries of UPC New York Wind — itself a subsidiary of UPC Wind Partners —permission to build the Cohocton and Dutch Hill wind farms, a total of 57 turbines, largely north and northeast of the village of Cohocton.
Also of note is the selective use of terminology by UPC Wind affiliates. The companies involved in the Cohocton and Dutch Hill projects appealed to the Public Service Commission for a fasttrack review on the grounds that they were both electric corporations.
Meanwhile, WindFarm Prattsburgh, another subsidiary of UPC New York Wind, had argued successfully that it is not an electric corporation subject to regulation by the commission. Granted, the Prattsburgh project is smaller (66 megawatts vs. 128 megawatts at Cohocton and Dutch Hill), but the company has been reluctant to talk about the apparent contradiction. Clearly, it is using technical distinctions to ensure the most favorable regulatory treatment in each case.
In neighboring Italy, another energy company, Ecogen LLC, has its eye on some Yates County-owned land and has threatened to use its status as a “utility” to get its hands on the property.
The unfortunate part of all this is that wind farms are getting a bad rap; the issue has boiled down to the unhelpful and subjective conclusion that Big Energy is forcing ugly turbines down the throats of locals.
Wind turbines may yet have a valuable place among other forms of energy that have problems themselves: Nuclear plants leave us with radioactive waste; the burning of natural gas, coal and oil — though oil is not a big player in electricity — contribute to smog and global warming.
If state leaders really back renewable energy, they should have no fear of giving towns the wherewithal to evaluate the costs and benefits of wind farms. It would be naive to think such money wouldn’t come with strings attached, but it would be equally naive to think the state is not already pulling strings.
Town governments are big on local control, but in the case of wind farms, such authority may be more illusion than reality.
The legal tangles in Italy, Prattsburgh and Cohocton over projects there show how energy companies have local governments outgunned with lawyers and wind experts at the ready.
Most of us defer the total control we exercise over our cars to a mechanic. Wind farms are infinitely more complex, which is why the state needs to provide towns with expertise to evaluate projects or provide cash to hire its own help.
The state has stacked the deck against small towns, starting with former Gov. George Pataki’s executive order on June 30, 2001 — and continued by Gov. Eliot Spitzer on Jan. 1, 2007 — that all state agencies buy 10 percent of their electricity from renewable sources by 2005 and 20 percent by 2010. Those orders turned the development of wind, hydro and other forms of renewable energy from desirable to a public imperative. The state Public Service Commission cited those orders in granting subsidiaries of UPC New York Wind — itself a subsidiary of UPC Wind Partners —permission to build the Cohocton and Dutch Hill wind farms, a total of 57 turbines, largely north and northeast of the village of Cohocton.
Also of note is the selective use of terminology by UPC Wind affiliates. The companies involved in the Cohocton and Dutch Hill projects appealed to the Public Service Commission for a fasttrack review on the grounds that they were both electric corporations.
Meanwhile, WindFarm Prattsburgh, another subsidiary of UPC New York Wind, had argued successfully that it is not an electric corporation subject to regulation by the commission. Granted, the Prattsburgh project is smaller (66 megawatts vs. 128 megawatts at Cohocton and Dutch Hill), but the company has been reluctant to talk about the apparent contradiction. Clearly, it is using technical distinctions to ensure the most favorable regulatory treatment in each case.
In neighboring Italy, another energy company, Ecogen LLC, has its eye on some Yates County-owned land and has threatened to use its status as a “utility” to get its hands on the property.
The unfortunate part of all this is that wind farms are getting a bad rap; the issue has boiled down to the unhelpful and subjective conclusion that Big Energy is forcing ugly turbines down the throats of locals.
Wind turbines may yet have a valuable place among other forms of energy that have problems themselves: Nuclear plants leave us with radioactive waste; the burning of natural gas, coal and oil — though oil is not a big player in electricity — contribute to smog and global warming.
If state leaders really back renewable energy, they should have no fear of giving towns the wherewithal to evaluate the costs and benefits of wind farms. It would be naive to think such money wouldn’t come with strings attached, but it would be equally naive to think the state is not already pulling strings.
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